Monday, August 17, 2009

(UPDATED 20 AUG!) 'Erica' lets Kneeling Catholic have it!

(my comments are purple, Erica and others comments are in black)

Lifeteen Star Matt Maher to be in Corpus Christi 22 AUG.

The other day, for a snack, I gave my children a choice between eating 'Cheetos' and eating an apple. They grabbed the Cheetos. My folly kind of reminds me a little of this picture of a Lifeteen event.



The Diocese of Corpus Christi is sponsoring Saturday's event @ Del Mar College. It costs each person $20 to attend. I'm sure most of "the kids will love it." But isthat why we have the Church? To give the kids what they want?

I am afraid these events greatly confuse young people about the relationship between spirituality and raw emotionalism because they simply equate the two.

I cannot imagine any Catholics before 'the age of Aquarius' attending such an event. Maybe I am wrong. So I must ask: Does this look like the Church of our fathers? Is this the Catholic worship our martyrs died for?

lex orandi, lex credendi (as we pray, so we believe)



K. C.

Erica said...
Is this not a generation that is living in the wake of the descent of the Holy Spirit? Did the Holy Spirit not enable our first Bishops to stand in the presence of all peoples and proclaim God in tongues? Since when has being emtional about God conflicted with spirituality?There is a BIG difference between the straight emotionality people experience at Protestan ecumenical communities and the worship that occurs at events like this. Our teens are catechized as well as evangelized.Who are you to judge someone else's spirituality? "The measure with which you measure will be measured unto you."The ability to worship our Lord freely- this is what the martyrs died for! Instead of attacking your fellow devout Catholics, pray for them.
August 18, 2009 3:01 PM
padraig said...
Erica: you seem judged already which did not occur. you seem pretty defensive...which the first bishops did not express to proclaim God...and people need to clarify when they speak of 'tongues'. Speaking in tongues means different known languages, not some mumbo jumbo that some spirit is instilling to show some divine but unintelligible presence that cannot be judged. Also, do not assume that you are not being prayed for even when you think you are being attacked. Control over your emotions shows spiritual maturity.
August 18, 2009 3:17 PM
Erica said...
I have read KC's opinion of Life Teen before. Yes, Life Teen was judged on this blog. Being a very devoted Core member for the Life Teen group at my parish, I do take offense to that.He called Matt Maher a "Life Teen rock star" when the reality is Matt Maher is a Catholic musician who sings of transubstantiation and other Catholic teachings. He compares him to cheetos for Heaven's sake. Excuse my spiritual immaturity for being upset by that. KC does not know Matt Maher personally, nor does KC know Matt's soul. None of us but God does. And there is no folly in lifting your hands to praise God. I'm glad judgement did not stop King David from dancing before the Lord. KC won't stop me from raising my hands to praise the Lord either. The Spirit enables me to do so and there is no folly in that.

Hello Erica and Padraig!

thanks for tuning in! I'll chime back in when I finish responding to all of Erica's responses!

Erica, you responded to every question, even the rhetorical ones! At any rate, I greatly value your contribution to this discussion, (especially because you are 'lifeteen') and I will be on my best behavior to keep from offending you and chasing you away!

pray for me!

K. C.

I'm back!! I going to repost Erica's responses, in black, with my purple responses.......

>>>Is this not a generation that is living in the wake of the descent of the Holy Spirit? Did the Holy Spirit not enable our first Bishops to stand in the presence of all peoples and proclaim God in tongues? Since when has being emtional about God conflicted with spirituality?
There is a BIG difference between the straight emotionality people experience at Protestan ecumenical communities and the worship that occurs at events like this. Our teens are catechized as well as evangelized.Who are you to judge someone else's spirituality? "The measure with which you measure will be measured unto you."<<<


[Erica! 19AUG2009 --i'm finally chiming in....

you are writing off Protestant worship as 'straight emotionality'. I don't see it that way. Protestant modes of worship, like the altar call, the camp meeting, are a good fit for Protestant theology. They are not "100% straight emotionality". What they do makes sense if you believe what they believe: specifically that the Holy Spirit deals primarily with individual believers who simply need to experience Him directly for Salvation and that there is no such thing as the Holy Mass or an identifiable Church which has been speaking for God for the past two thousand years.

What confuses me is when Catholics start worshiping that way. We seem to be setting up a competitor for the Holy Mass, as it has been celebrated down thru the centuries, and for the seven Sacraments.


If Lifeteen's innovations really are from the Holy Spirit, then why am I not justified in thinking that Protestantism, which pioneered tongues speaking and healing services 100 years before Catholics, and altar calls, and Communion in the Hand 500 years before any Catholics did, must then be more in tune with the Holy Spirit than the Catholic Church?

Whenever we adopt modes of worship which were foreign to our grandfathers and their grandfathers, are we not proclaiming that their Faith, the timeless and universal Catholic Faith, was somehow missing the boat? and not just the Faith of old, but also the Faith of Catholics in other parts of the World. For example, I know American Catholics who, when they go into Mexico for mission work have to forget their Lifeteen habits, like hand Communion, to keep from offending the natives. ]


>>The ability to worship our Lord freely- this is what the martyrs died for!<<

[Many good men and women have died for the cause you mention, but I don't agree that that makes them Catholic martyrs. As a matter of fact, I think many of our martyrs of old would have suffered death rather than participate in a Lifeteen Mass. I'm not exaggerating!]

>>instead of attacking your fellow devout Catholics, pray for them.<<<

(Agreed!)


Erica said...I have read KC's opinion of Life Teen before. Yes, Life Teen was judged on this blog. Being a very devoted Core member for the Life Teen group at my parish, I do take offense to that.He called Matt Maher a "Life Teen rock star" when the reality is Matt Maher is a Catholic musician who sings of transubstantiation and other Catholic teachings. He compares him to cheetos for Heaven's sake. Excuse my spiritual immaturity for being upset by that. KC does not know Matt Maher personally, nor does KC know Matt's soul. None of us but God does. And there is no folly in lifting your hands to praise God. I'm glad judgement did not stop King David from dancing before the Lord. KC won't stop me from raising my hands to praise the Lord either. The Spirit enables me to do so and there is no folly in that.




[Erica!

if you could tell me that Lifeteen is trying to help the Pope's campaign to spread kneeling Communion or even just to promote celebration of the Latin Mass, and not dragging their feet like so many American priests and bishops, then I would take everything back that I have written against the program and apologize too. Really!

I am sure what you do, you do out of love for God and a clean conscience.

I do want you to pray for me!


K. C.]

Erica said...
KC, I beg to differ on the Protestants pioneering "tongues speaking and healing services 100 years before Catholics". I distinctly remember our Lord sending His disciples forth and telling them to heal the sick and cast out demons, etc. Jesus also performed healings among large crowds. Sounds like the pioneer of healing services was Jesus, the founder of the Church. As far as praying in tongues, again, I mention that on Pentecost the Spirit manifested Himself that way through the Apostles. Doesn't that seem more like the Church pioneered these things then?Of course, I am an orthodox, obedient Catholic through and through, but as my former pastor once said, "The Holy Spirit isn't exclusive to the Catholic Church."

Yes, the magisterium is the final say on all things. But I don't see them banning hand raising, praying in tongues, having healing services, and the like. It is possible for the Spirit to work through other denominations, but it also scares me that Catholics abandon the truth every day for places where they "feel" the Spirit. I have to question whether they knew their Faith at all if they are so easily led astray, but that is a totally different topic.I honestly can't speak for the entire Life Teen organization in regards to kneeling for Communion or the Latin Mass, but if you are interested in knowing their opinion, you can definitely speak with Randy Raus, the president of Life Teen. His email address is rraus@lifeteen.com and his office phone number is 480-820-7001. Mark Hart, the executive VP, can be reached at the same number or emailed at mhart@lifeteen.com.

I can tell you that from what I've seen and the lessons I've read, in my opinion Life Teen is completely obedient to the magisterium and the Holy Father. At our Life Teen Mass, there are people who choose to kneel to receive our Lord. We often express to our teens that the proper way to receive Jesus is with total reverence on the tongue and not in the hand; however, our Bishop has made it known that he wants people to exercise the ability to receive on the hand because Jesus said, "Take and eat." I really am not trying to change your opinion of Life Teen. I just wanted people to be informed.I minister to teens because they are the Church and live in such a difficult time. I do it out of love for Christ in them, and I thank God for the gift of my apostolate.
August 19, 2009 5:19 PM

Kneeling Catholic said...
Erica,I feel the earth moving under my feet! You are definitely changing my opinion of Life Teen in Corpus Christi! God bless you for what you're doing! ...more laterK.C.
August 19, 2009 6:16 PM

11 comments:

  1. Is this not a generation that is living in the wake of the descent of the Holy Spirit? Did the Holy Spirit not enable our first Bishops to stand in the presence of all peoples and proclaim God in tongues? Since when has being emtional about God conflicted with spirituality?

    There is a BIG difference between the straight emotionality people experience at Protestan ecumenical communities and the worship that occurs at events like this. Our teens are catechized as well as evangelized.

    Who are you to judge someone else's spirituality? "The measure with which you measure will be measured unto you."

    The ability to worship our Lord freely- this is what the martyrs died for!

    Instead of attacking your fellow devout Catholics, pray for them.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Erica: you seem judged already which did not occur. you seem pretty defensive...which the first bishops did not express to proclaim God...and people need to clarify when they speak of 'tongues'. Speaking in tongues means different known languages, not some mumbo jumbo that some spirit is instilling to show some divine but unintelligible presence that cannot be judged. Also, do not assume that you are not being prayed for even when you think you are being attacked. Control over your emotions shows spiritual maturity.

    ReplyDelete
  3. I have read KC's opinion of Life Teen before. Yes, Life Teen was judged on this blog. Being a very devoted Core member for the Life Teen group at my parish, I do take offense to that.

    He called Matt Maher a "Life Teen rock star" when the reality is Matt Maher is a Catholic musician who sings of transubstantiation and other Catholic teachings. He compares him to cheetos for Heaven's sake. Excuse my spiritual immaturity for being upset by that. KC does not know Matt Maher personally, nor does KC know Matt's soul. None of us but God does.

    And there is no folly in lifting your hands to praise God. I'm glad judgement did not stop King David from dancing before the Lord. KC won't stop me from raising my hands to praise the Lord either. The Spirit enables me to do so and there is no folly in that.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Hello Erica and Padraig!

    thanks for tuning in! I'll chime back in when I finish responding to all of Erica's responses!

    Erica, you responded to every question, even the rhetorical ones! At any rate, I greatly value your contribution to this discussion, (especially because you are 'lifeteen') and I will be on my best behavior to keep from offending you and chasing you away!

    pray for me!

    K. C.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Hello KC. I appreciate the ability to let you know what is on mind. I do respect your stance on so many issues involving the Church. I just had to express my opinion in regards to this one. My brothers and sisters in Christ are in my prayers always. God bless, E

    ReplyDelete
  6. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  7. KC, I beg to differ on the Protestants pioneering "tongues speaking and healing services 100 years before Catholics". I distinctly remember our Lord sending His disciples forth and telling them to heal the sick and cast out demons, etc. Jesus also performed healings among large crowds. Sounds like the pioneer of healing services was Jesus, the founder of the Church. As far as praying in tongues, again, I mention that on Pentecost the Spirit manifested Himself that way through the Apostles. Doesn't that seem more like the Church pioneered these things then?

    Of course, I am an orthodox, obedient Catholic through and through, but as my former pastor once said, "The Holy Spirit isn't exclusive to the Catholic Church." Yes, the magisterium is the final say on all things. But I don't see them banning hand raising, praying in tongues, having healing services, and the like. It is possible for the Spirit to work through other denominations, but it also scares me that Catholics abandon the truth every day for places where they "feel" the Spirit. I have to question whether they knew their Faith at all if they are so easily led astray, but that is a totally different topic.

    I honestly can't speak for the entire Life Teen organization in regards to kneeling for Communion or the Latin Mass, but if you are interested in knowing their opinion, you can definitely speak with Randy Raus, the president of Life Teen. His email address is rraus@lifeteen.com and his office phone number is 480-820-7001. Mark Hart, the executive VP, can be reached at the same number or emailed at mhart@lifeteen.com.

    I can tell you that from what I've seen and the lessons I've read, in my opinion Life Teen is completely obedient to the magisterium and the Holy Father. At our Life Teen Mass, there are people who choose to kneel to receive our Lord. We often express to our teens that the proper way to receive Jesus is with total reverence on the tongue and not in the hand; however, our Bishop has made it known that he wants people to exercise the ability to receive on the hand because Jesus said, "Take and eat."

    I really am not trying to change your opinion of Life Teen. I just wanted people to be informed.

    I minister to teens because they are the Church and live in such a difficult time. I do it out of love for Christ in them, and I thank God for the gift of my apostolate.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Erica,

    I feel the earth moving under my feet! You are definitely changing my opinion of Life Teen in Corpus Christi! God bless you for what you're doing!

    ...more later

    K.C.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Not trying to be too difficult here, but Erica is presenting a vision of LifeTeen that is not entirely consistent with my experience. I have witnessed, and heard discussed (apocraphyl, I know) LifeTeen Mass celebrations that were really poor from a liturgical standpoint, and downright corrupting with respect to formation.

    Due to the very nature of LifeTeen, with its focus on making the Mass "fun," and "hip" for a younger crowd, it lends itself to many forms of abuse. These can take the form of gross violations of the rubrics of the Mass, with, for instance, Eucharistic prayers being made up on the spot, or set to a rock and roll beat and voiced partly by the priest and partly by the laity. Or, the abuse can involve teachings that are not in line with those of the Church. Sadly, this is common, and KC's reference that LifeTeen Mass tends towards Protestant beliefs is not without substantiation, in my view. There are LifeTeen Masses where the Eucharist is proclaimed a symbol, and where iconoclasm takes place, sometimes even with regard to our Blessed Mother. There is often a focus at LifeTeen on the relationship between Jesus and the participant that also tends dangerously towards a Protestant, evangelical view of "once saved, always saved." There is often virtually no focus on the unworthiness of our receipt of the Gift of Salvation from God, and mention of sin and bad behaviors which drive one away from God is also virtually nonexistent.

    But, fundamentally, my problem with LifeTeen, as I have seen it, is this: it is fundamentally a poor idea to have one Mass for one set of people, and one for another, and so on, so that the Church gets subdivided and is not a unified whole. Not so very long ago, in Catholic Churches around the world, it was possible to attend Mass in a foreign country and still participate fully, as the language of the Church was universal. Now, not only is one lost at a Mass celebrated in a vernacular one does not understand, but we have many variations on the Mass for various groupos of people. This is hardly the best way to reinforce the idea of one, universal, all-encompassing Church.

    The very formation of LifeTeen, its goals and methods, separate it from the Church and seems to me to possess a very Protestant ethos. Personnel is policy, and if you look at many of the founders of LifeTeen, I think you can see what I mean from the standpoint of the potential for bad practice, schism, or even heresy.

    All of the above is, of course, my opinion, and I am not judging those who like LifeTeen, but merely giving my opinion for why I think it is not a good idea. Of course, bad practices and deviation from the Faith can occur at almost any Novus Ordo Mass, and often do. Nevertheless, I feel that the very differential nature of LifeTeen, and its attempts to appeal to people at a certain stage of life, as opposed to all people at any stage of life, lends it towards abuse and deviance from the teachings of our Faith. It is my opinion that it is a rather poor manner in which to celebrate Mass.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Thanks Larry,

    I hope Erica has a chance to respond -- she mentioned Catholics who abandon their Faith to go where they 'feel the Spirit'-- I hope she will develop on that too.

    It is possible to mix oil and water if you stir really hard. I think some people, who have a strong Catholic formational respect for the Sacrament and the Church, can use LifeTeen and not be affected much. Down here that would generally be those from the rural Mexican American parishes.

    That is probably not the case when LifeTeen is the only Catholic formation a young person gets. This is direction our Diocesan school system seems to be heading. :-(

    Maybe I'm wrong! Maybe LT's Matt Maher is going to tell everyone to 'kneel down for Jesus!' when he has his youth rally here Saturday!

    K.C.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Objectively speaking, I totally agree with Larry as far as Lifeteen is concerned...but I need to add a few points.

    1. My parish does have a Lifeteen program yet, the things that go on Liturgically are much more reserve than at other parishes, because the LT Masses are done by the GIRM and what's said in the Missal. It really does depend on the person running the program, I teach in the Confirmation program at my parish, and I emphasize kneeling for Communion and on the tongue, and the teachers all receive on the tongue, so it makes our message much more clear.

    2. I've been trying to encourage use of the parish altar rail that we have for the LT Masses and the priests are open to it, pray that it goes well...

    ReplyDelete

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