Thursday, October 15, 2009

Rosemarie (Unam Sanctam Blog) does not disappoint!

K. C. and Rosemarie continue arguing even though everyone else has moved on.





>>>Now, while it’s true that the Holy Spirit is not the Redeemer, neither is Mary, strictly speaking. "Co-redemptrix" doesn't mean "coredeemer," but "Woman with the Redeemer." <<<<


Rosemarie!


One of us is just plain wrong on this! I think 'redemptor' simply means 'redeemer'... therefore co-Redemptrix must mean co-redeemer.
If all the term meant was "Woman with the Redeemer", not only would all Catholics have signed on to 5th dogma petition.....all Baptists, Mormons and Muslims would have joined in! Talk about an ecumenical ground swell!!..





With regards to the Holy Spirit being a sort of "Redeemer"....In the 'Te Deum' Christ's redeeming roll is tied to His humanity - 'You redeemed your people with your precious Blood'. Therefore I think it also our Lady's human suffering which qualifies her as a redemptrix, the Immaculate suffering for the wicked. This is why I believe Redemption is Jesus Christ Incarnate's roll in the Holy Trinity, and not the Father's nor the Spirit's. It reminds me a little of modalism when we start saying the Spirit is some kind of Redeemer, or for that matter 'because Mary is the Holy Spirit's spouse she must be Christ's as well.'..



On another note...speaking of Mary's iconship not being limited to the Holy Spirit...I think she images the Father in being Theotokos. Don't we believe Christ is born of the Father before all ages? ex Patre-ex Maria
keep praying for me! maybe I'll come around


K.C.




Rosemarie's post for all who would like to respond....




>>>I still don't see how, if Mary is the human analog or icon or quasi-incarnation to the Holy Spirit, that her co-redeeming fits that role.

To answer this, I’d like to begin by quoting a Mariologist, Fr. Rene Laurentin. While I don’t always agree with him on everything, he does make some good points on this topic that I’d like us to consider. In his _ A Short Treatise on the Virgin Mary_,...



Fr. Laurentin writes:Here again, therefore, Mary is seen entirely in relation to Christ. Less recognition has been given to the complementary truth that she is also entirely relative to the Holy Spirit. She acts in dependence on him. The title of “coredemptrix” which was coined for her and widely attributed to her by Mariologists, though not retained by the papal magisterium or by Vatican II, would fit the Holy Spirit in the primary and strictest sense of the term; for he is the Spirit of Christ, and by his anointing and breath the whole saving work of the Redeemer is animated. The title “co-Redeemer” would aptly describe him, according to a divine equality that would give full force to the prefix “co-“. Mary owes the fact that she was able to communicate in this sacrifice to the Holy Spirit, who not only cooperated in the essential work by his anointing, but also divinely stirred up the cooperation of the first of the redeemed. With him who is “co-Redeemer” she contracts this new bond at the time of the essential sacrifice. The Spirit had urged her on to Calvary so that she might stand there as the first fruits of the cooperating Church, at the very hour when the sign of the Church was to appear from the pierced side of the Savior (Jn. 19:34). (pp. 242-243.)Now, while it’s true that the Holy Spirit is not the Redeemer, neither is Mary, strictly speaking.


"Co-redemptrix" doesn't mean "coredeemer," but "Woman with the Redeemer." Mary works with Jesus, playing a subordinate role in the redemption of the world. The Holy Ghost also works “with the Redeemer,” so that ties into Fr. Laurentin’s assertion that He could be called “co-Redeemer” (although he is not our Redeemer).Mariologists say that the Blessed Virgin’s role as Co-redemptrix is threefold.

First, she gave Jesus the Body and Blood that He offered up to the Father for our salvation. This was, of course, effectively accomplished in her by the Holy Spirit, as we say in the Creed that Christ was “conceived by the Holy Ghost.” Second, she united her sufferings to His on Calvary. Fr. Laurentin says above that the Spirit “stirred” her to do this. Third, she participates in the distribution of the grace of salvation that her Son gained on Calvary. Recall that St. Maximilian wrote, “as the spouse of the Holy Spirit, she shares in the distribution of all graces.” So here, too, we see the action of the Third Person of the Trinity in and through Mary.

This is why I don’t see how her Co-redemptrix role contradicts her close union[nice switcheroo there! 'close union with' substituted for 'earthly image of'. If Dr. Hahn were only saying Mary had a 'close union' with the Holy Spirit then we would not be having this discussion]with the Holy Ghost. On the contrary, the two are very much intertwined. Mary is the ‘Woman with the Redeemer” precisely because the Spirit of God, Who worked with Christ throughout His earthly life and continues to work with Him in the Church, has associated the Blessed Virgin with His work and works through her in a special way. The Spirit works with Christ through Mary, she works with Christ by the power of the Spirit.I hope that helps clarify what I’ve been saying all along. Feel free to ask more questions.>>>Pray for me!Please pray for me as well!In Jesu et Maria,Rosemarie

3 comments:

  1. +J.M.J+

    >>> I think 'redemptor' simply means 'redeemer'... therefore co-Redemptrix must mean co-redeemer.

    That is not the proper understanding of the term. The Church teaches that Jesus is our only Redeemer. Here's a quote from the Council of Trent, Session 25, “On Invocation, Veneration and Relics of Saints, and on Sacred Images”:

    The holy council commands all bishops and others who hold the office of teaching... (that) they above all instruct the faithful diligently in matters relating to intercession and invocation of the saints, the veneration of relics, and the legitimate use of images, teaching them that the saints who reign together with Christ offer up their prayers to God for men, it is good and beneficial suppliantly to invoke them and to have recourse to their prayers, assistance and support in order to obtain favors from God through His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, WHO ALONE IS OUR REDEEMER and Savior....But if anyone should teach or maintain anything contrary to these decrees, let him be anathema. (emphasis mine)

    (Read the original in context: http://www.americancatholictruthsociety.com/docs/TRENT/trent25.htm )

    This is an infallible teaching of the extraordinary Magisterium. It rules out Mary being a "co-redeemer" if by that we mean a redeemer alongside Christ. Many English-speakers misunderstand the term “Co-redemptrix” because in our language the prefix “co-“ usually means "equal-to", like a co-worker. However, it comes from the Latin word “cum,” meaning "with", not "equal to". So Co-redemptrix means "with the Redeemer", and since it has a feminine suffix ("-trix"), it indicates a female. So in Catholic Mariology, Co-redemptrix means "Woman with the Redeemer", not "female co-redeemer."

    Mary is the Woman who is specially associated with Our Lord in His earthly mission. She cooperates in His work of redemption but is not herself a redeemer. This is the common Mariological understanding of the term "Co-redemptrix

    >>>If all the term meant was "Woman with the Redeemer", not only would all Catholics have signed on to 5th dogma petition.....all Baptists, Mormons and Muslims would have joined in!

    Baptists, and Evangelicals in general, are not likely to sign on to any Catholic idea that has even a whiff of exaltation of Mary. Many of them reject the title "Mother of God" even though they believe that Jesus is God and Mary is His Mother, simply because it "exalts Mary too much" in their eyes. So there's no way they would sign on to this idea.

    Mormons are a somewhat different bird but I suspect they also wouldn't sign on to a Catholic belief like that. Muslims don't even believe that Jesus is the Redeemer, so they certainly wouldn't call His Mother the "Woman with the Redeemer."

    >>>With regards to the Holy Spirit being a sort of "Redeemer"

    I keep stressing that He is not “a sort of Redeemer," but One who works with Christ the Redeemer in applying the fruits of redemption to us. Jesus alone is Redeemer, but others work with Him in applying that redemption to souls, especially the Holy Spirit in and through Our Lady.

    (continued)

    ReplyDelete
  2. +J.M.J+

    >>> In the 'Te Deum' Christ's redeeming roll is tied to His humanity - 'You redeemed your people with your precious Blood'. Therefore I think it also our Lady's human suffering which qualifies her as a redemptrix, the Immaculate suffering for the wicked.

    Yet she herself is among the redeemed, and so cannot be a redeemer with Our Lord. If I may quote Ludwig von Ott:

    The title Corredemptrix =Coredemptress, which has been current since the fifteenth century, and which also appears in some official Church documents under Pius X (Dzgr 1978,) must not be conceived in the sense of an equation of the efficacy of Mary with the redemptive activity of Christ, the sole Redeemer of humanity (I Tim. II:5) As she herself required redemption and in fact was redeemed by Christ, she could not of her self merit the grace of the redemption of humanity in accordance with the principle: Principium meriti non cadit sub eodem merito. (The author of an act of merit cannot be a recipient of the same act of merit.) Her co-operation in the objective redemption is an indirect, remote co-operation, and derives from this that she voluntarily devoted her whole life to the service of the redeemer, and under the Cross, suffered and sacrificed with Him. (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, pg. 213)

    Jesus alone redeems, His suffering and death alone have the power to free us from sin. Mary's sufferings cannot redeem us, but united to Christ they gain redemptive value. The value comes from Him, not her, since He is the sole Redeemer. Thus Mary shares in Our Lord’s act of redemption without herself being a redeemer/redemptrix.

    >>> This is why I believe Redemption is Jesus Christ Incarnate's roll in the Holy Trinity, and not the Father's nor the Spirit's.

    Technically, it’s not His role in the Holy Trinity but in His earthly mission. We’re talking about the economy of the redemption, not the inner life of the Godhead.

    Jesus is the Redeemer and the Holy Ghost is He Who works with the Redeemer, hence the “Co-redeemer” (cum – redemptor, “with the redeemer”). The Spirit dispenses the graces and merits of Christ’s Redemption to us through Mary, thus making her the Co-redemptrix, the “Woman with the Redeemer.” Yet neither He nor Mary are redeemers. Am I finally clear enough?

    (continued)

    ReplyDelete
  3. +J.M.J+

    >>> It reminds me a little of modalism when we start saying the Spirit is some kind of Redeemer, or for that matter 'because Mary is the Holy Spirit's spouse she must be Christ's as well.'

    Except that I haven’t said those things. It’s not that Mary must be Christ’s spouse because she is spouse of the Holy Spirit. It would be that she is espoused to the entire Godhead, but this relationship is commonly appropriated to the Third Person. It’s the theological principle of appropriation: that something common to all Three Persons can be attributed to one of the Persons in particular because of a certain “fittingness.” The principle of “appropriation” not modalism; it’s Catholic theology. This article in the Catholic Encyclopedia explains it:

    Appropriation
    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01658a.htm

    >>>On another note...speaking of Mary's iconship not being limited to the Holy Spirit...I think she images the Father in being Theotokos.

    Yes;Matthais Joseph Scheeben wrote: “The motherhood of Mary is the most perfect image of the paternity of God the Father with regard to the Son of God in His humanity” (Mariology 1:176)

    She also images Christ insofar as her life “mirrors” His in many ways, since God conformed her to her Son. I doubt Dr. Hahn would say that she only images the Third Person of the Trinity and not the other Two.

    >>> keep praying for me! maybe I'll come around

    I recommend you study some Catholic theology and Mariology. You would find it helpful.

    >>>nice switcheroo there! 'close union with' substituted for 'earthly image of'.

    It’s not exactly a switcheroo. I was responding to your statement: “I still don't see how, if Mary is the human analog or icon or quasi-incarnation to the Holy Spirit, that her co-redeeming fits that role.”

    Maybe we are just talking past each other here. We probably both read what Dr. Hahn said in different ways, so what you mean by “human analog or icon or quasi-incarnation” may not be what I think Scott means by it.

    In Jesu et Maria,
    Rosemarie

    ReplyDelete

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