Hahn's style has been to quote a few lesser-known Catholic theologians down thru the ages who have said that the Holy Spirit has a maternal role. This would not be very remarkable except that Dr. Hahn seems to be trying to locate *all* of God's maternity in the Holy Spirit. Like a Family, we know there's a Father and a Son, therefore there has to be a Mother! Process of elimination gives Dr. Hahn only one candidate. The Holy Spirit. After being seized by this simple analogy, Dr. Hahn appears ready to fill out an application for the next ex cathedra definition.
Over the past week I have had the opportunity to see Dr. Hahn and a few of his disciples, Jean Baptiste and Rosemarie, in action in blogdom. I am becoming more skeptical with regards to his claims....
Dr. Hahn uses disparaging words to describe the teaching of Mary being the spouse of the Holy Spirit, [recall 'absurd' and 'Holy Bachelor'] and Rosemarie questions the teaching's authority. This seems logical. Undermining Mary's Matrimony to the Holy Spirit is to be expected. If Hahn believes the Holy Spirit is Maternal then why would He (??) want to be espoused to a human woman?
But then Jean Baptiste assures me that Dr. Hahn is solidly behind the teaching that Mary is the Holy Spirit's spouse. In such a case, where adherents seem to contradict one another, I think clarity is needed. Is there a Divine Matrimony between the Holy Spirit and Mary, or isn't there?...
Saying she was married to all Three Persons of the Holy Trinity seems to confuse something which *was* quite clear. e.g. When we say Mary is Mother of God, we don't need to specify...we know that she is *not* mother of the Father, nor of the Holy Spirit. So, you see, it is possible to have a particular relationship to One Person of the Trinity which is not shared with the Others. In the same way if we say she is spouse of God, then she does not have to be married to all Three Persons, which is what I understand Rosemarie to be saying...
Furthermore,.....I thought that Mary's Perpetual Virginity relied upon St. Joseph's conviction that Mary should only be the spouse of one Person, i.e. the Holy Spirit! "Do not fear to take Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit". This quote comes from a pretty old document, authored by the Person who is the topic of this discussion.
K.C.
>>>We can dispense with this 'quasi-incarnation' nonsense.
Rosemarie:*Sigh* Please scroll up to what I posted above on "October 10, 2009 3:58 PM." It gives what St. Maximilian Kolbe said in full context and so shows just what he meant when he said that the Blessed Virgin is "in a certain sense, the 'incarnation' of the Holy Spirit."
>>>I disagree with your 'mutually exclusive' statement in that the Person of the Holy Spirit is *not* our Redeemer!>>>
Rosemarie:I never said that the Holy Spirit is the Redeemer. What I said is that the Holy Spirit worked *with* our Redeemer throughout His earthly life and continues to do so in the Church. While they are certainly distinct Divine Persons, they are not totally separate from each other since they share one Divine Nature (along with God the Father).Traditional Catholic theology teaches that the Three Persons of the Trinity act together in regard to creatures. So while some distinctions may be made, we can't make a full exclusion of the Spirit from Our Lord's work.
>>>Therefore if Mary is truly Co-redemptrix then she is not in any way fulfilling a role analogous to that of the Holy Spirit. Agreed?
Rosemarie>>>St. Maximilian wrote the following: "As Mother of Jesus our Savior, Mary was the Co-redemptrix of the human race; as the spouse of the Holy Spirit, she shares in the distribution of all graces." (Kolbe, Sketch 1940)So he seems to have made a distinction between her roles as Co-redemptrix and Mediatrix, attributing one to her relationship with Christ and the other to her union with the Spirit. But the saint clearly believed in both, even though he emphasized the union between the Holy Ghost and Mary.
>>>So it appears to me Dr. Hahn's speculation being true would do away with Mary's role as Co=redemptrix as well as her being the spouse of the Holy Spirit.
Rosemarie: I don't see how. Dr. Hahn is on record as a supporter of the "Fifth Dogma" of Mary as Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate. Here is something he wrote:"While I am not naïve, I am hopeful, but only because of the Father’s desire to pour out his supernatural power to unite all of his children around his Son and “our common mother” (Redemptoris Mater 25). That is why I would welcome a new Marian dogma, if the vicar of my Lord should choose to define one. As we approach the Jubilee celebration of the Incarnation, how fitting indeed would a dogma celebrating the role and full identity of the Woman who made the Incarnation possible."From: http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/marian/5thdogma/hahn.htmAnd St. Maximilian still believed that Mary is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, he just understood it differently than you seem to.
Why the either/or mentality, KC? How does the bond between Our Lady and the Holy Ghost as expounded upon by St. Maximilian somehow negate the fact that she is the Mother of God the Son according to the flesh? Why can't Blessed Mother have relationships to both Jesus and the Holy Spirit - and to God the Father, for that matter? Mariologists traditionally expounded on her relationships to all Three Persons.[Right, but not the same relationship! Pius XII sums it up quite beautifully ...
" As we gaze upon thee, O spotless maiden and favorite of the Heavenly Father, our minds are lost in admiration! O Virgin, Spouse of the Holy Spirit! O tender Mother of Jesus" ...
hence she is daughter of the Father, Mother of the Son and spouse of the Holy Spirit. She relates to all Three, but uniquely for Each.
...Dr. Hahn's other hero, Matthias Scheeben, was a proponent of Mary as bride of Christ, hence I suspect Dr. Hahn is also leaning towards Mary as bride of Christ or of all Three Persons.]
I don't get why you see these as mutually exclusive; St. Maximilian didn't, Dr. Hahn doesn't, lots of Mariologists people don't. What am I missing here?In Jesu et Maria,Rosemarie
Hey
Rosemarie!
I plainly see that Maximillian Kolbe accepted the teaching that Mary is spouse of the Holy Spirit.
I don't see that Dr. Hahn is on the same page as Kolbe since he never quotes Kolbe on that point. I also don't see quotes from Kolbe affirming the Holy Spirit's maternal nature, or femininity. Therefore I think Hahn is using Kolbe selectively. On the other hand Hahn did made that 'Holy Bachelor' snipe when he mentioned Mary's matrimony with the Holy Spirit.... that's all I have to go on. I. Give me something more from Hahn!!....
>>>How does the bond between Our Lady and the Holy Ghost as expounded upon by St. Maximilian somehow negate the fact that she is the Mother of God the Son according to the flesh? Why can't Blessed Mother have relationships to both Jesus and the Holy Spirit - and to God the Father, for that matter? <<<<
I won't repeat, since I apparently was too confusing. How should I put it? You seemed to be saying that Mary, in your belief, is spouse to all three Persons of the Holy Trinity. I was disagreeing. I believe she is only spouse to the Holy Spirit, and not the spouse of her Divine Son or Heavenly Father.
Regarding 'Co-redemptrix' I think a little water has passed under the bridge since Dr. Hahn made his affirmation of that doctrine. At the time, I don't think, he was yet convinced that Mary is the quasi-incarnation of the Holy Spirit. I still don't see how, if Mary is the human analog or icon or quasi-incarnation to the Holy Spirit, that her co-redeeming fits that role...... and if he's only saying that Mary sometimes is and sometimes isn't an 'earthly type for the Holy Spirit' then he's not saying much.
Pray for me!
K.C.
This is why we need the Mandatum ;).
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