(K.C. is purple) Ben and Rosemarie continue with the discussion : 'Is the Holy Spirit the most feminine member of the Holy Trinity?'
As you can see, this has branched out (of control). We are discussing the meaning of 'co-Redemptrix' and whether Our Lady is only spouse to the Holy Spirit. Rosemarie fears I think co-redeemer is equivalent to Redeemer.
Rosemarie!..What was the name of Captain Sullenberger's copilot? You might have to seriously google to find out that answer :-) Hence! you see that 'copilot' is not nearly equivalent to 'pilot'. ditto for 'co-redeemer' and 'redeemer'. No mealy-mouthing needed!
>>> I think 'redemptor' simply means 'redeemer'... therefore co-Redemptrix must mean co-redeemer.
[Rosemarie]That is not the proper understanding of the term. The Church teaches that Jesus is our only Redeemer. Here's a quote from the Council of Trent, Session 25, “On Invocation, Veneration and Relics of Saints, and on Sacred Images”:The holy council commands all bishops and others who hold the office of teaching... (that) they above all instruct the faithful diligently in matters relating to intercession and invocation of the saints, the veneration of relics, and the legitimate use of images, teaching them that the saints who reign together with Christ offer up their prayers to God for men, it is good and beneficial suppliantly to invoke them and to have recourse to their prayers, assistance and support in order to obtain favors from God through His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, WHO ALONE IS OUR REDEEMER and Savior....But if anyone should teach or maintain anything contrary to these decrees, let him be anathema. (emphasis mine)(Read the original in context: http://www.americancatholictruthsociety.com/docs/TRENT/trent25.htm )
[Rosemarie]This is an infallible teaching of the extraordinary Magisterium. It rules out Mary being a "co-redeemer" if by that we mean a redeemer alongside Christ. Many English-speakers misunderstand the term “Co-redemptrix” because in our language the prefix “co-“ usually means "equal-to", like a co-worker. However, it comes from the Latin word “cum,” meaning "with", not "equal to". So Co-redemptrix means "with the Redeemer", and since it has a feminine suffix ("-trix"), it indicates a female. So in Catholic Mariology, Co-redemptrix means "Woman with the Redeemer", not "female co-redeemer."
Mary is the Woman who is specially associated with Our Lord in His earthly mission. She cooperates in His work of redemption but is not herself a redeemer. This is the common Mariological understanding of the term "Co-redemptrix>>>If all the term meant was "Woman with the Redeemer", not only would all Catholics have signed on to 5th dogma petition.....all Baptists, Mormons and Muslims would have joined in!Baptists, and Evangelicals in general, are not likely to sign on to any Catholic idea that has even a whiff of exaltation of Mary. Many of them reject the title "Mother of God" even though they believe that Jesus is God and Mary is His Mother, simply because it "exalts Mary too much" in their eyes. [I don't see how 'Woman with the Redeemer' is an exaltation. The preposition 'with' is ambiguous and it certainly does not imply Mary's Immaculate Conception, nor her redemptive human suffering]So there's no way they would sign on to this idea.Mormons are a somewhat different bird but I suspect they also wouldn't sign on to a Catholic belief like that. Muslims don't even believe that Jesus is the Redeemer, so they certainly wouldn't call His Mother the "Woman with the Redeemer."
>>>With regards to the Holy Spirit being a sort of "Redeemer"
[Rosemarie]I keep stressing that He is not “a sort of Redeemer," but One who works with Christ the Redeemer in applying the fruits of redemption to us. Jesus alone is Redeemer, but others work with Him in applying that redemption to souls, especially the Holy Spirit in and through Our Lady.(continued)
>>> In the 'Te Deum' Christ's redeeming roll is tied to His humanity - 'You redeemed your people with your precious Blood'. Therefore I think it also our Lady's human suffering which qualifies her as a redemptrix, the Immaculate suffering for the wicked.
[Rosemarie]Yet she herself is among the redeemed, and so cannot be a redeemer with Our Lord. If I may quote Ludwig von Ott:The title Corredemptrix =Coredemptress, which has been current since the fifteenth century, and which also appears in some official Church documents under Pius X (Dzgr 1978,) must not be conceived in the sense of an equation of the efficacy of Mary with the redemptive activity of Christ, the sole Redeemer of humanity (I Tim. II:5) As she herself required redemption and in fact was redeemed by Christ, she could not of her self merit the grace of the redemption of humanity in accordance with the principle: Principium meriti non cadit sub eodem merito. (The author of an act of merit cannot be a recipient of the same act of merit.) Her co-operation in the objective redemption is an indirect, remote co-operation, and derives from this that she voluntarily devoted her whole life to the service of the redeemer, and under the Cross, suffered and sacrificed with Him. (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, pg. 213)Jesus alone redeems, His suffering and death alone have the power to free us from sin. Mary's sufferings cannot redeem us, but united to Christ they gain redemptive value. The value comes from Him, not her, since He is the sole Redeemer. Thus Mary shares in Our Lord’s act of redemption without herself being a redeemer/redemptrix.
>>> This is why I believe Redemption is Jesus Christ Incarnate's roll in the Holy Trinity, and not the Father's nor the Spirit's.
[Rosemarie]Technically, it’s not His role in the Holy Trinity but in His earthly mission. We’re talking about the economy of the redemption, not the inner life of the Godhead.Jesus is the Redeemer and the Holy Ghost is He Who works with the Redeemer, hence the “Co-redeemer” (cum – redemptor, “with the redeemer”). The Spirit dispenses the graces and merits of Christ’s Redemption to us through Mary, thus making her the Co-redemptrix, the “Woman with the Redeemer.” Yet neither He nor Mary are redeemers. Am I finally clear enough?(continued)
>>> It reminds me a little of modalism when we start saying the Spirit is some kind of Redeemer, or for that matter 'because Mary is the Holy Spirit's spouse she must be Christ's as well.
[Rosemarie]'Except that I haven’t said those things. It’s not that Mary must be Christ’s spouse because she is spouse of the Holy Spirit. It would be that she is espoused to the entire Godhead, but this relationship is commonly appropriated to the Third Person. It’s the theological principle of appropriation: that something common to all Three Persons can be attributed to one of the Persons in particular because of a certain “fittingness.” The principle of “appropriation” not modalism; it’s Catholic theology. This article in the Catholic Encyclopedia explains it:Appropriationhttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01658a.htm
>>>On another note...speaking of Mary's iconship not being limited to the Holy Spirit...I think she images the Father in being Theotokos.
[Rosemarie]Yes;Matthais Joseph Scheeben wrote: “The motherhood of Mary is the most perfect image of the paternity of God the Father with regard to the Son of God in His humanity” (Mariology 1:176)She also images Christ insofar as her life “mirrors” His in many ways, since God conformed her to her Son. I doubt Dr. Hahn would say that she only images the Third Person of the Trinity and not the other Two.
>>> keep praying for me! maybe I'll come around
[Rosemarie]I recommend you study some Catholic theology and Mariology. You would find it helpful.[ZA-ZING!]
>>>nice switcheroo there! 'close union with' substituted for 'earthly image of'.
[Rosemarie]”It’s not exactly a switcheroo.
I was responding to your statement:
“I still don't see how, if Mary is the human analog or icon or quasi-incarnation to the Holy Spirit, that her co-redeeming fits that role.
[Rosemarie]”Maybe we are just talking past each other here. We probably both read what Dr. Hahn said in different ways, so what you mean by “human analog or icon or quasi-incarnation” may not be what I think Scott means by it.In Jesu et Maria,Rosemarie
Dear Kneeling Catholic, You write:
"I believe [Mary] is only spouse to the Holy Spirit, and not the spouse of her Divine Son or Heavenly Father."
I'm sure we can agree that Mary is the prototype or personal symbol of the Church. If that's true, then she's also Spouse of Christ, since St. Paul says: "For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body." So if Christ is Bridegroom of the Church, He is also Bridegroom of the embodiment of the Church. Saint Germanus calls Mary "God-wed" (indiscriminately, to the whole Godhead). Mary is married spiritually to the Father, according to St. John of Damascus, who says: "It was fitting that the spouse whom the Father had taken to himself, should live in the divine Mansions".
Further, if Mary is the New Eve, then she is married to the New Adam (the Son). [Stop! Ben, I don't see how that follows. Our Lord and our Lady did not come here to imitate Adam and Eve. Jesus and Mary, thru their obedience and their suffering, undid the sin of Adam and Eve. I believe that by itself merits the names 'new Adam' and 'new Eve'. How does marrying them help us? I don't see the logical connection ] St. Ephraim and St. Peter Chrysologus both refer to her as Bride of Christ. Obviously, the "Bride of God" image is a metaphor. What it signifies is unitive love: "The union brought about by married love is the most intimate of all." (St. Maximilian). If this is true, then Mary is Spouse of the whole Godhead, since she is united to all the Persons in a unitive love. [Ben, I admit I went way out on a limb saying Mary is only spouse to the Person of the Holy Spirit and you might be correct. Nevertheless when you say 'Spouse of God' must mean the spouse of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I fear you are wrong. Otherwise saying 'Mother of God' must mean the mother of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Thanks for joining in!]