John Thavis (vaticanista) finally publishes kc's comment about Pope Francis and casuistry

so here it is..[ Mr Thavis finally published .]I respond to a commenter.......




Father Carl Diederichs wrote:

Papa Francesco was and is a pastor. Once you are a pastor, you can no longer practice casuistry and think you are being faithful to Christ by holding on to doctrine and dogma at the expense of real people.

We can turn to the eastern church and find a loving solution that will also mean we don't need the Sacred Rota and any other "court" to help us be faithful Christians. A few people may lose their jobs. Deo Gratias.

 

 

 

Father Carl>>>>>>Papa Francesco was and is a pastor. Once you are a pastor, you can no longer practice casuistry and think you are being faithful to Christ by holding on to doctrine and dogma at the expense of real people<<<<<<

 

 

kneeling catholic<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Dear Father!  I am afraid you have the definition of 'casuistry' backwards.  Casuistry has historically been used to allow people to get around the plain sense of a proscription, . a 'Thou Shalt not'.  I recognize that casuistry can sometimes be a good thing.

 

However regarding the case at hand, the 'casuist' would be the one to argue that there are ways around our Lord's plain declaration about Matrimony (that is what casuists do--they look for a way around rules): i.e. Let no man put asunder what God hath joined- and that it is adultery to 'marry' someone who is already married.  The casuist would be the one to say that it isn't that simple.  The casuist would be the one to be  'pastoral' as you put it<<<<<<<<<



http://www.johnthavis.com/pope-says-church-must-accompany-those-in-failed-marriages-not-condemn-them#comments

We are losing !! (response to 23 Feb Papal Liturgy @ St. Peter's Basilica)

Who is 'we'?  people like kc who had hoped that keeping Guido Marini as papal master of ceremonies would hold up against the tide of Communion-any-old-way. Sadly, it seems as if things are moving back towards the pre-Corpus Christi 2008 days. as evidenced by the 23 Feb liturgy ......

1. Communion kneelers are gone altogether  (whereas earlier, Pope Francis did at least make the deacons kneel for Communion).  no-one is required to kneel, and not one person in the entire basilica does!  (perhaps it is too much to ask?)
2. Tons and tons of priests giving out Holy Communion any-old-way.  I am wondering if MSGR. Marini has ceased admonishing Ministers of Holy Communion to only distribute directly on the tongue.  Father MacDonald of Southern Orders verifies that when he was a MHC in Rome a few months back, he was told specifically not give out Communion in the hand. After watching today's Mass, I think MSGR. Marini has simply been worn down and 'frankified'. 


Either
a. how we treat Jesus in the reception of Holy Eucharist is the Apex of our reverence,  and expresses how we really feel about Jesus, as the prophet Bishop Athanasius Schneider holds.  Or  else....

b. reverence towards the Sacrament just does not get to the heart of the Gospel, and is instead one of those external things that are best done as perfunctorily as possible regardless of the message such inattention sends to, and the effect it has on, young people.

If His Holiness can define 'b' ex cathedra  then I will shut down this blog.

I think we all need to be praying for MSGR Marini and all liturgists, especially those close to Pope Francis. If we cannot get this one thing right, then all the red shoes in all the world will not save us.
 

 

Kneeling Catholic's comments about Pentecostals and His Holiness [Anchoress has now published this:-)]

[Updated, the Anchoress apparently did eventually [?] publish my comment, I received notice Saturday morning...and the responses to my comment did come from Friday...so I guess I just couldn't read the comments on Friday]

I commented the following regarding her post about the Holy Father's recent embrace of Bishop Palmer (not a real bishop...some kind of Anglican) @

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/theanchoress/2014/02/20/charismatic-the-pope-and-the-pentacostals-are-45-minutes-of-fascinating/

Hello Elizabeth!

I got about this far into your video and got pretty discouraged

....8:35 (Bishop Palmer) "sending my children to the Catholic Church which was so traditional, that was going to kill their Faith!".....

:-(




I have a lot of questions about the Holy Father's approach. Why, for instance, is Kenneth Copeland embraced and I am not? Pastor Copeland holds to a blasphemous Christology, claiming e.g. that our Lord was punished and reborn in hell.(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dwbNvBq7eQ)





 you can see some of Pastor  Copeland's anti-trinitarian teachings here (http://thewordonthewordoffaithinfoblog.com/2009/03/11/43-aberrantheretical-and-non-christian-theological-quotes-from-kenneth-copeland/) .  I am sure Pastor C holds these beliefs in good faith.  May I now embrace them as well?  (The Holy Father seems to be putting his stamp of approval on Pastor C 'as is')

The other problem I have is: from these gentlemen's demeanor I do not see any hint that either Bishop Palmer or Pastor  Copeland feel any need to become Catholic, (which is a problem, is it not?)

We should give Pope Francis the benefit of doubt re: "the EF is a fad"

I put this in 'The Tenth Crusade' combox

February 16, 2014 at 7:47 AM

Kneeling Catholic said...

TTC,

I think Anon.is onto something. (I.e. Something might have been lost -or added-in translation)

I hear that Archbshp Glaubner is a Focolare member, and is probably not well-disposed towards the EF to begin with.

We should give HH the benefit of doubt here. There have been other 2nd hand accounts where the Pope is supposed to have said something that the relater would have himself said. I think there is a strong possibility that we are hearing Archbshp Glaubner's sentiments via his embellishment of a response to a leading question.

k.c.

Diane @ Te Deum Laudamus gets Bishop Athanasius Schneider Wrong!

(I would simply write this as a 'combox' comment at Diane's blog, but she has banished me!!)

Diane over at 'Te Deum' blog has written a nice 15 Feb post about Pope Francis' recent homily criticizing the laity for one thing or another.  (It seems it is now ok to be judgmental of the laity who dare to question why the Church continues to coddle predatory homosexual priests or why the Church simply does  not tell the laity clearly what to they are supposed to believe.)

Then  Diane branches off to her (hers and mine!) favorite prophetic voice, Bishop Athanasius Schneider.  Diane assures us that he would never force his sheep to forgo hand-Communion.   see below


DIANE:>>>>>>>

Consider
how we see people discussing the need to increase reverence for the Eucharist. Some will promote distribution of Holy Communion on the tongue and kneeling with a bitter sarcasm that sometimes even mocks others who receive in the hand while standing - a valid and popular method of reception.  Because it is popular and valid does not mean we ought not talk about changes. I myself am an advocate of returning to Communion being distributed on the tongue while kneeling.  However, I am also an advocate of the method used by Bishop Athanasius Schneider, ORC.  He proposes and invites people by appealing to their intellect and hearts.  This shepherd talks to lambs like a lamb and the end result is that they do not scatter when he speaks.  It is a mode of delivery that is pure and because it is pure, it allows the Holy Spirit to do the real work.  I've known people who cannot bring themselves to agree with Bishop Schneider, yet they say they will think about what he says.  Bishop Schneider's approach is one that respects the free will of others. He is mindful that he cannot force others to accept what he is teaching.  People who use caustic methods to advance a cause do harm to the very thing they are promoting. <<<<<

Diane,
His Excellency certainly does--as you say-- appeal to people's intellect and hearts. However he does not stop there.  I post below his recent words in Hong Kong.  I think he either has changed his mind and now simply thinks the simple invitation of Pope Benedict fell on deaf ears (and was undermined by know-it-all clerics) or he has always blamed  lack of respect for the Blessed Sacrament on solely on clerics.  At any rate, it appears that now his Excellency thinks it is time for clerics to act.

BISHOP SCHNEIDER>>>>
One can adduce pastoral reasons in favor of continuing with the practice of Communion in the hand, as for example the right of the faithful to choose. Such a right, however, violates—considering the general proportions of the practice—the right that the Eucharistic Jesus has, i.e. the right to the greatest possible sacredness and reverence. In this regard it is about the right of the most fragile in the Church. All the reasons in favor of the continuation of the practice of Communion in the hand lose their weight confronting the gravity of the situation of the minimalism of reverence and sacredness, the obvious danger of carelessness and loss of the fragments and of the increasing stealing of the consecrated hosts. The continuation of the use of the indult of Communion in the hand cannot be said to be a pastoral need, because it damages the faith and the piety of the faithful and it damages the rights of the Eucharistic Lord Himself.

Bishop Athanasius Schneider calls for direct ban on hand Communion

\

If you have casually followed this blog, you know I follow closely any news from His Excellency Athanasius Schneider.  Up until now, I was not aware that Bishop Schneider had actually called for hand Communion to be banned. His unassuming manner might lead one to think that Bishop Schneider would never call for anything other than voluntary initiatives.  However this, apparently,  is not at all the case.

His Excellency sees reverence for Jesus Christ, hence Eucharistic reverence as the center of our worship.  Everything else flows from the Center!  For the Church to be righted, she must refocus on that Center!  Any other program for reform is analogous to removing the sun from the solar system and then trying to get the planets to keep moving in their orbits....or something like that....

Thanks to Rorate for the following quote from Bishop Schneider's December visit to Hong Kong.....

One can adduce pastoral reasons in favor of continuing with the practice of Communion in the hand, as for example the right of the faithful to choose. Such a right, however, violates—considering the general proportions of the practice—the right that the Eucharistic Jesus has, i.e. the right to the greatest possible sacredness and reverence. In this regard it is about the right of the most fragile in the Church. All the reasons in favor of the continuation of the practice of Communion in the hand lose their weight confronting the gravity of the situation of the minimalism of reverence and sacredness, the obvious danger of carelessness and loss of the fragments and of the increasing stealing of the consecrated hosts. The continuation of the use of the indult of Communion in the hand cannot be said to be a pastoral need, because it damages the faith and the piety of the faithful and it damages the rights of the Eucharistic Lord Himself.

15.

Great Saints who reformed the Church and true apostolic souls in the history of the Church have said: the spiritual progress of an epoch of the Church is measured by the manner of reverence and devotion towards the Sacrament of the Altar. Saint Thomas Aquinas has expressed this truth very concisely: “Sic nos Tu visita, sicut Te colimus” (Saint Thomas Aquinas, hymn “Sacris solemniis”): Lord, visit us to the extent as we venerate you! This is valid also for our days: the Lord will visit His Church nowadays with special graces of an authentic renewal, so desired by Blessed John XXIII and the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council, to the extent He is loved and also venerated in a visible manner especially in the moment\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

Eli Manning wins Kneeling Catholic Brothership award.

I never have been an Eli Manning fan, until last Sunday's Super Bowl.

Eli, who himself somehow has two Super Bowl rings to his much more favored and talented brother's one, showed what he is really made of.

Such sympathy!  Such agony!

No crocodile tears here!

Eli truly loves his big brother!

Pope greets 8,000 Neo-Catechumenal followers

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2014/02/01/pope_to_neocatechumenal_way:_build_ecclesial_communion,_evangelize/en1-769304

The Holy Father does seem to caution them.....


>>>The first is to have the utmost care to build and to preserve the communion within the particular Churches in which you will work. The Way has its own charism and dynamic, a gift, which like all of the gifts of the Spirit, has a profound ecclesial dimension; this means paying attention to the life of the Churches to which your leaders send you, to enhance the riches, to suffer for the weaknesses if necessary, and to walk together, like one flock, under the guidance of the pastors of the local Churches. Communion is essential sometimes it can be better to renounce living in all the details that your itinerary demands, in order to ensure the unity among those who form one ecclesial community, of which you must always feel that you are part......<<<<


 

THE WEEK's Damon Linker punches holes in Rolling Stones' Pope Francis piece

9 ridiculous claims in Rolling Stone’s cover story on Pope Francis

 

http://theweek.com/article/index/255848/9-ridiculous-claims-in-rolling-stonersquos-cover-story-on-pope-francis

 

here's a sample:

 

>>>>>8. "Francis replaced [Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Tarcisco] Bertone with Archbishop Pietro Parolin, who has said in an interview that priestly celibacy is not church dogma — meaning, it can be changed."
Archbishop Parolin said that priestly celibacy is not church dogma because it's not church dogma. Period. And yes, it can change, and may — though not with a wave of a papal magic wand.
9. "And what is His Holiness' own position on [gay marriage and abortion]? The pope's artful dodge struck me as brilliantly Clintonian. 'That of the church,' Francis said simply. 'I'm a son of the church.' He didn't add, because he didn't have to, that he's the father now, too."
Apparently the dodge was so artful and "Clintonian" that only the author can detect it. To my eyes, it looks like the pope responded to the question by saying precisely what one would expect him to say: My position on gay marriage and abortion is the Catholic Church's position.<<<<<

Mr. Linker patiently demonstrates that Rolling Stone author Mark Binelli's article betrays simultaneously both a hatred for, and an ignorance of  Catholicism.  It is  Mr. Binelli's wish that Pope Francis is (secretly) just as disdainful of Catholicism as is Mr.  Binelli.




 

How to get the Catholic News Agency, CNA, to censor your comments!

back on 28January2014 CNA carried the following story

'Come out of your shell' to praise the Lord, Pope encourages'

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/come-out-of-your-shell-to-praise-the-lord-urges-pope/

 

In the article, the Pope gave the admonishment stating that 'some people' despise charismatic Catholics. As usual, he did not specify who 'some people' are. 

 

There are, to date, only 7 comments after this article, ntl, this could be a very small percentage of the number of commenters since CNA has blocked out two of my comments.

 

What follows is two comments, one by a priest then one by a snide commenter--both in RED.  My comment, which failed to get past CNA's

 censor is in BLACK.

 

Fr. Duffy >>>>Those "formalities" [[he is referring to the Holy Father's disparaging of formalities]] are essential for maintaining decorum at Mass. Any of us who have witnessed some of the bombastic demonstrations at charismatic services can attest to their lack of respect for the presence of Jesus in the Tabernacle.<<<<

 

 

 

 

RealityCheck>>>You're right. You know better than the Pope.<<

 

Kneeling Catholic>>>§  Hello RealityC!
Usually, when a man is a priest, it is polite to address him as 'Father', and not the simple 'You'.

 Nevertheless, the Pope is addressing 'judgmentalism'. I would hope no traditionalist despises the poor little people--who have been misled by their spiritual leaders -- who think that our worship can imitate that of other faiths and yet have no ultimate consequences for what WE actually believe. (the counter argument is known as 'lex orandi lex credendi')

 The past 4 decades of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal has witnessed a virtual one-way stream of converts who ultimately decide it is better to be a real pentecostal protestant than a fake one.>>>>