Monday, September 28, 2009

'Gail F' of Father Z's discussion on kneelling

Father Z's blog has a little string going on kneeling during Communion. Not everyone is for it. I have copied a few of the comments...watch out for those green comments from Gail F! Gail F's comments put kneeling people in a dilemma...

Apparently Gail F thinks kneeling Catholics are obligated to look around first to see whatever the local ideosyncracy is and then seriously consider going along with the crowd so as not to make a scene......

I have a problem with Gail F's underlying assumption, which seems to be that the crowd should trump your conscience. Gail! You can't be saying that! Help us out here!


>>>>>>>>
I think the first question is, is the person actually doing so out of rebellion? That is, does he/she do this to make a point, or is it because of sheer devotion that makes it impossible to do anything else? Unfortunately, due to many different things going on in the Church today, some people DO genuflect or kneel simply to make the point that everyone else is wrong.


The norm for the USA is to receive standing. In such cases, a person genuflecting or kneeling is to be given the sacrament but to be “counseled” afterward, presumably to be told the correct way to do it. [Gail, the 'correct' way is kneeling]That ought to be done charitably but not every priest is a model of charity. I really don’t see how a person genuflecting or kneeling in the middle of a line can do so without disrupting everyone elseunless the parish has many people who do so, or unless he or she waits to go last. It’s all very well to say, as one commenter did, that disrupting a line is no big deal—until someone [...looses an eye?] trips,[have you had a chance to watch how Communion is distributed by the Pope? I have yet to see anyone fall over!] , or knocks into someone else. So much depends on how many people are there. Much more “disruption” can be done in a small crowd than, say, the parish I went to today—where hundreds of people were winding around in very complex lines.


If this is not the person’s regular parish, then surely he or she must know that genuflecting or kneeling is a roll of the dice—it will be accepted or it won’t, depending on what that parish is used to. Especially as the person refers to this as a “Novus Ordo” church [probably a better term would be 'New American' church, as its pastor is in rebellion to the universal, Catholic Church] and doesn’t seem to be inclined to accept what are, after all, the normal masses for most people in the country. It is insulting to call them “Novus Ordo masses.” They are ALL, as the Pope himself says, the SAME MASS.Comment by Gail F — 27 September 2009 @ 3:13 pm

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2009/09/quaeritur-if-i-kneel-for-communion-am-i-in-rebellion/

3 comments:

  1. So, I'm the guy who posted the query that Father Zuhlsdorf very graciously put on this site. I replied to some of the comments at his site, but I would like, with your permission, to reply to Gail's comments directly here.

    Gail said:

    I think the first question is, is the person actually doing so out of rebellion? That is, does he/she do this to make a point, or is it because of sheer devotion that makes it impossible to do anything else? Unfortunately, due to many different things going on in the Church today, some people DO genuflect or kneel simply to make the point that everyone else is wrong.

    My reply:

    I am not trying to shame more people into kneeling when I do so. As I said on Father Z's site, I kneel out of my own personal reverence for the Lord and the Sacrifice taking place at the Mass. I kneel because I am unworthy to receive Him. I recognize the Eucharist for the Pure Gift that it is, and I come as a supplicant. I have experienced a good deal of inner turmoil over kneeling for Communion, as I know it causes some people (like Gail) discomfort. I have been accused of trying to be "holier than thou." I have been asked by some priests to stop kneeling. I continue to do so, where I am able (I did not kneel at the Mass in question, but genuflected, due to the hostility of the priest in question to kneeling), due to my desire to be as reverent as possible, and not to challenge the practices of others.

    I will say that if my practice encourages others to kneel, I agree with and support them, but I do not do it to challenge others. It seems odd to me that, very often, many people seem to think that is my reasoning for kneeling. I tend to wonder why that is. It also seems odd that people who go and snatch Communion in the hand without a bow or an 'Amen' are rarely if ever criticized, but those who are more reverent are.

    ReplyDelete
  2. 2nd half of my reply due to word limit count.

    Gail said:

    The norm for the USA is to receive standing. In such cases, a person genuflecting or kneeling is to be given the sacrament but to be “counseled” afterward, presumably to be told the correct way to do it. [Gail, the 'correct' way is kneeling]That ought to be done charitably but not every priest is a model of charity. I really don’t see how a person genuflecting or kneeling in the middle of a line can do so without disrupting everyone elseunless the parish has many people who do so, or unless he or she waits to go last. It’s all very well to say, as one commenter did, that disrupting a line is no big deal—until someone [...looses an eye?] trips,[have you had a chance to watch how Communion is distributed by the Pope? I have yet to see anyone fall over!] , or knocks into someone else. So much depends on how many people are there. Much more “disruption” can be done in a small crowd than, say, the parish I went to today—where hundreds of people were winding around in very complex lines.

    My reply:

    I think this is poor reasoning. The amount of disruption, if you want to call it that, is trivial, and, no one has fallen or almost so when I have knelt. Regarding the 'norm' in the US, this came about to 'normalize' a liturgical abuse that had become widespread in North America and certain Western European countries. The 'norm' remains an indult, and the Vatican has made repeatedly clear that those who choose to kneel are not to be denied, and are not to be told they are in rebellion or acting counter to the Faith.

    Gail said:

    f this is not the person’s regular parish, then surely he or she must know that genuflecting or kneeling is a roll of the dice—it will be accepted or it won’t, depending on what that parish is used to. Especially as the person refers to this as a “Novus Ordo” church [probably a better term would be 'New American' church, as its pastor is in rebellion to the universal, Catholic Church] and doesn’t seem to be inclined to accept what are, after all, the normal masses for most people in the country. It is insulting to call them “Novus Ordo masses.” They are ALL, as the Pope himself says, the SAME MASS.

    My reply:

    I think the author is overreacting to a common appelation used to identify the form of Mass one celebrates. I could have referred to it as a Mass according to the 1970 Roman Missal, but that probably would not have satisfied. There were many details involved in this Mass - it is not my "main" Parish, but I have been to Mass there many times. The particular Mass being celebrated that day is attended by many homeschoolers and other devout Catholics. I was far from the only one to genuflect or kneel. My main problem was not with the priest choosing to uncharitably criticize our practice at the conclusion of Mass, but that he said we were in rebellion. We were/are not. The priest has since apologized to me, personally, and will apologize to the congregation at a Mass on Oct. 9.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Larry,

    thanks for posting here! remember! Bishop Athanasius Schneider says (in German :-( ) that by being faithful you should not be surprised when 'marginalization' comes from within the Church itself.

    also (i'm a new fan of Dante) the 13th cty 'Inferno', i think, has monks, priests, bishops, and popes ending up on pretty much every level of hell.

    sorry for broaching that subject, but I have recently read thru some of the writings of the Canadian prelate picked up on kiddie porn charges. http://www.antigonishdiocese.com/MonthlyColumns.htm The accused bishop is big on 'love' and I'm really having a hard time finding references to hell. which is probably is a good summation for an North American church's teaching which has given us all that it has.

    btw thanks for your earlier contributions on the Lifeteen topic. I have yet to see that banging on a tamborine can make people kneel, but I'm trying to keep an open mind :-).

    K. C.

    ReplyDelete

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