Discussion about Holy Fragments continues @ SouthernOrders Blog [[Udated!]]

Good morning, Friends!

The discussion on Father MacDonald's blog, with yours truly somewhat involved, continues....the question has to do with 'how much' care is needed to avoid dropping the Holy Fragments of the Eucharist on the floor or wherever...........(feel free to give me or Father a piece of your mind!)


Kneeling Catholic said...

Father MacDonald! (I do go to your blog for the 'latest!)....however, sadly, I must disagree with your comment about 'marvelous compromise'.

I'm afraid we have been doing the marvelous compromise for 50 years....allowing hand Communion to anyone, and most people prefer it, not out of theological concerns, but as 'a preference'. People vehemently opposed to hand Communion, like yours truly, oppose it on theological grounds--as you know! So what we have is some people's personal preference trumping other people's theological grounds. You see how this is bound to cause aggravation and grief?

I think there is a thing called 'cognitive dissonance' where someone is required to believe something and disbelieve it simultaneously, and it's not a good thing! Father, why do priests cleanse their fingers after touching the Blessed Sacrament? Is it only a symbolic gesture, or is it to assure that the Holy Fragments are not allowed to be casually rubbed off and to fall to the floor....more or less like someone might do with their own dried-up-boogers?

Either, Father, the priest is just doing a symbolic gesture or he is not....(maybe the Church needs to explain that the Fragments should not be given any special care or that maybe Fragments are not the Eucharist?!!....otherwise people like me are going to want special care given!) I'm sure you see where I am going....but I must 'go there' nonetheless......

Why are people allowed to touch the Blessed Sacrament, but not then told that they need to examine and cleanse their hands in the same way conscientious priests and EMHCs do? If you can answer that question, then I'll sign onto your 'marvelous compromise'!!!

April 28, 2013 at 7:27 PM

Gene said...

Kneeling Catholic, Excellent observation. These kinds of mixed signals abound in the post-Vat II Church. They are a reflection of a certain ambivalence within the Curia regarding the nature of the Church and theological truth.

April 29, 2013 at 6:21 AM

Pater Ignotus said...

Kneeling - Not all conscientious priests cleanse their fingers after touching the Blessed Sacrament because not all conscientious priests have fragments of the host on their fingers after handling the sacred species. Yes, a conscientious priest can know, with certainty, whether or not he has fragments on his fingers.

Not all priests hold a purificator to their lower lips when they consume the Precious Blood because not all priests dribble when they drink the sacred species.

A gesture may be both symbolic and functional. It does not have to be one OR the other.

April 29, 2013 at 2:36 PM

Kneeling Catholic said...

Pater Ignotus>>>A gesture may be both symbolic and functional. It does not have to be one OR the other.<<<

A valid point, Father! but tangential to my question. Your examples lead us right back to my original question, untouched and unanswered...i.e. why do priests make such a fuss about Holy Fragments on their own fingers, and yet teach the rest of us to be supremely indifferent?

Actually, it's not my question! My daughter asked me, and her 6th grade religion teacher this very question a few years back....neither of us could give her an satisfactory answer...

perhaps another example?... back in 2010 I was discussing this topic with a Chaldean Catholic, and she got downright fired-up and told me that she didn't think lay people should be handling the Eucharist in the first place..then she went on to relate how once she saw a priest rescue a dropped Host by getting down on his hands and knees and licking It off the floor!

of course, Eastern Rite Catholics do NOT have our 'marvelous compromise'...maybe you feel they are overly scrupulous? At least they do have an answer........

Kneeling Catholic said...

Pater Ignotus said...
>>>>I find no freagments of the hosts on my fingers after distributing communion, not do I see any on the hands of those to whom I give communion. Yes, I have looked at both. <<<<

>>>>Licking the floor is not a practice in which I intend to participate.
April 30, 2013 at 11:22 AM<<<<<<


Pater Ignotus,

forgive me, but it is impossible for me to believe that you, after having fractioned the Eucharist with your fingers, and then distributing a 100 or so Hosts, both whole and fragmented, on a regular basis, that you never get any Holy Particles on your fingers?!!!!

Father, that would be almost as big a miracle as your confecting the Eucharist in the first place! :-0

In as much as what we believe determines how we act, [[and how we act can reinforce what we believe]] would it be safe for me to say that your belief about the Holy Eucharist must in some way differ from that of the floor-licking Chaldean priest?

April 30, 2013 at 12:18 PM

Pater Ignotus said...

Kneel - If you want to come out for finger inspection, seeking fragments, let me know when.

I suspect the Chaldean priest and I share a common belief in the Eucharist. What we do not share is thoughts on how one needs to or ought to react/respond when a host is dropped accidentally on the floor.

April 30, 2013 at 12:56 PM

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

Drinking from the common chalice (doing the ablutions) after 30 people have drunk from it, or licking the floor, I'd say what's the difference, six of one or a half dozen of the other!

April 30, 2013 at 1:10 PM

Pater Ignotus said...

Communion cups have contained liquid with a low alcohol (germ-killing) content. They have also been wiped after each communicant, and are (often) made of gold or silver, each of which has mild anti-biotioc properties.

The floor has none of these benefits.

April 30, 2013 at 2:35 PM

Gene said...

Ignotue, You mean the Chaldean Priest doesn't believe in the Real Presence, either? LOL!

April 30, 2013 at 3:05 PM

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

I doubt seriously that by the time the 30th person has drunk from the chalice that the saliva of the 29 others that he is drinking has any alcohol content whatsoever and if so it is tainted and quite unmedicinal. It's time to wake up about this unhygienic silly liturgical anomaly.

April 30, 2013 at 3:33 PM

Pater Ignotus said...

Pin/Gene - No, I mean that he does believe.

Kneel - If you want to come out for finger inspection, seeking fragments, let me know when.

I suspect the Chaldean priest and I share a common belief in the Eucharist. What we do not share is thoughts on how one needs to or ought to react/respond when a host is dropped accidentally on the floor.

Father, P I !

I already am coming out for ‘finger inspection’, what would be wrong with teaching us to be more careful in handling the Blessed Sacrament?

Regarding you and the Chaldean priest [[who rescued a Host by licking it off the floor]] sharing the same belief about the Eucharist, Father, I take you at your word.  But wouldn’t you say your attitude towards the Sacred Species differs?  A lot?   And wouldn’t you say the Eucharistic attitude of Eastern Rite laity [and the Eastern Orthodox for that matter]– horrified at  the thought of the Eucharist being handed out like spare change at the local  7-11 —differs from that of your Latin-rite parishioners?

Hand Communion at Papal Masses continues :-(

Folks, Holy Communion starts around 1H23M into the RadioVatican broadcast...

K.C. has to respectfully company of with a couple of "compadres" with regards to what we see on the cameras....

Father MacDonald of Southern Orders, comments on the variety of ways of receiving our Lord in the  Blessed Sacrament and calls it a 'marvelous compromise'!

Tancred, of Eponymous Flower,  [http://eponymousflower.blogspot.com/]] lambasts the Holy Father and draws a contrast between him and Pope Benedict....

First, old friend, Tancred:  there are couple of errors in your post.

1. ) >>>>.Pope Benedict XVI. had only gave Holy Communion kneeling and on the tongue to the faithful shortly after he became POpe<<<<<<

Wrong.  Pope Benedict became Pope in April 2005.  Pope Bendict XVI started kneeling Communion on the tongue on the Feast of Corpus Christi, 2008.  For more than three years, Pope Benedict, himself, distributed Communion the same way the crowd-pleasing priests in the following video distribute, i.e. Any-Old-Way.  I remember the great disappointment I felt seeing this during his visit to America in 2008.

2)>>>>>>>> During dozens of scheduled Papal Masses, priests were instructed under Pope Benedict XVI. from 2008 to give the consecrated host only on the tongue. With few exceptions, the traditional practice was quickly put into effect again<<<<<<<<

Wrong.  Tancred!  please find me more than one video of Benedict's priests denying people Hand Communion.  I've only seen one....that's for 8 years of Benedict!!   I have seen three videos of this occuring  under Francis and that's for ONE MONTH.    Incidentally, extrapolating from that....Francis'  enforcement of the 'hand-Communion ban' is 250 times stronger than Benedict's.  Watch some of Benedict's WYD videos, friend!   outside of the sphere of the Pope's personal distribution, it was a free-for all!

Tancred and all fellow traddies!  I share your disappointment that the camera man could not catch a priest correcting hand-Communicants, nor did I get to see the Pope's own personal distribution to kneeling communicants ((this might have taken some of the shock/scandal value out of the first communicants being filmed casually taking the Host in their hands)).  Some of this could be the luck of the draw.....however it clear that IF MSGR Marini has instructed the Priests to emphasize and enforce Communion on the tongue, then many priests are simply defying him.

The confirmandi all received kneeling, but even there, there was a whole benchful who switched over to hand-Communion, once it was clear that the priest was not enforcing anything.  The first boy takes hand Communion and the others follow via peer pressure or whatever....

I'll try to update this post with some helpful pictures and also comment of Father M's remark later on.....

[[later update]]

Ok, Father MacDonald!  (I do go to your blog for the 'latest!)....however, sadly, I must disagree with your comment about 'marvelous compromise'.

I'm afraid we have been doing the marvelous compromise for 50 years....allowing hand Communion to anyone, and most people prefer it, not out of theological concerns, but as 'a preference'.  People vehemently opposed to hand Communion, like yours truly, oppose it on theological grounds--as you know!  So what we have is some people's personal preference trumping other people's theological grounds.  You see how this is bound to cause aggravation and grief?

I think there is a thing called 'cognitive dissonance' where someone is required to believe something and disbelieve it simultaneously, and it's not a good thing!  Father, why do priests cleanse their fingers after touching the Blessed Sacrament?  Is it only a symbolic gesture, or is it to assure that the Holy Fragments are not allowed to be casually rubbed off and to fall to the floor....more or less like someone might do with their  own dried-up-boogers?

Either, Father, the priest is just doing a symbolic gesture or he is not....(maybe the Church needs to explain that the Fragments should not be given any special care or that maybe Fragments are not the Eucharist?!!....otherwise people like me are going to want special care given!)  I'm sure you see where I am going....but I must 'go there' nonetheless......

Why are people allowed to touch the Blessed Sacrament, but not then told that they need to examine and cleanse their hands in the same way conscientious priests and EMHCs do?  If you can answer that question, then I'll sign onto your 'marvelous compromise'!!!

Traditionalists at Rorate Caeli Blog tip Pope Francis' way!

The blog Rorate Caeli has been in the news lately.  The AP's article about Catholic Traditionalists being horrified by Pope Francis' election mentions the R-C blog specifically in a story which was even printed in our local newspaper.

The R-C Blog's memorable quote in the AP/Blaze was: “The official end of the reform of the reform — by example,” 

Perhaps the title of R-C Blog's next article will be “The official end  continuation of the reform of the reform — by example,” !!  What happened?  R-C has been won over by watching Pope Francis' reverent papal Masses.

I believe this is great news, as the Vatican is surely keeping track of the 'the usual suspects'.  If the Holy Father sees that his Liturgies draw praise from his old opponents, and 'crickets' from his progressive buddies,  I think he would be, from a strictly human standpoint, less likely to see us traditionalists as the proverbial 'dog in the manger'.  

I certainly hope that the renowned traditionalists, e.g. R-C blog, will appeal directly to the Holy Father and say something like.....

Your Holiness, 

  

We pray for you every day and love your papal liturgies. in particular their reverence!  Nevertheless, we would ask that you consider the trepidation that we still have that....

1) you might be inclined, as many media experts predict, to dispense with Benedict's reform-of-the-reform, perhaps with the idea that the reverence for the Holy Eucharist which Benedict sought to recapture is an obstacle to evangelization and that' the poor' are put off by displays of mystery and reverence, and so we must condescend to them by removing transcendent images from our worship. We respectfully would ask you to consider that the whole of the New World--filled with more poverty and more paganism than it is today-- was evangelized by brave Jesuit and Franciscan missionaries with nothing more than their brave hearts and what is now known as the Extraordinary Form.  'Inculturation' came four centuries later and we frankly are not convinced that its dismal aftermath is not strongly connected with the idea that Church must learn to be more accepting of irreverence and more concerned with building 'self esteem'.  If a lack of humility is what plagues the Church, then shouldn't we learn, first of all, how to behave humbly before God Himself?

2) or that you might sell the beautiful Churches which still exist, in order to help the poor.

We believe, your Holiness, that de-sensitizing and de-sacralizing worship, and making it 'plain vanilla', converting God's temples into gymnasium-like structures with little beauty to behold...., we believe such things hurt the poor more than they hurt anyone else!  The rich --many of whom serve on Church finance boards and themselves have had a hand in the 'stripping of the altars'-- do not have  much of a vested interest in making and keeping churches beautiful.  Many well-to-do folk, regrettably,  seem to care less that their bran new church looks like a factory building (nor that it's locked up tight most of the time!!)  They can always go home to their own houses which look and smell like what cathedrals are supposed to look and smell like!! in the meantime, the poor lose the most beautiful thing in their lives!

We, Catholic traditionalists,  stand ready to be your 'shock troops' and to carry Christ's hope to the uttermost. (as did Isaac Jogues, as did Father Junipero)..but unfortunately, currently,  we are feeling besieged and our energy is spent searching far and wide for parishes which reverently celebrate Christ's mysteries, and faithfully teach our children God's truths.  It certainly cannot be your Holiness' intention that we should be forced into enclaves, little spiritual ghettos.  We also have gifts to give to the entire Church!

Please,  Holy Father,  give us, many of whom are also poor, our beauty and our beautiful churches back!  Tell your bishops .... 

or something like that!

Gloria TV's video clip says it all with images!

Mssr. Michael Rene Landry has put this together.  It really does say it all....although I think 'Faith of Our Fathers' [[Tennessee Ernie Ford's rendition :-)  might go better with the images!  sorry Michael Rene!

Man Refused (AGAIN) Hand Communion at Pope Francis Papal Mass 22 April

 I keep waiting for one of Pope Francis' balloon-masses..... but instead I keep seeing Masses with lots of Latin and only kneeling people receiving Holy Communion from the Holy Father!  [I thought by now,  having read many traditionalist and (one 'progressive' blogs, that MSGR Marini was supposed to be fired!]

@ 1hour 57min 39 sec you can see once again--as last week-- someone being reminded to receive Holy Communion on the tongue...

To be sure, there are the 'crowd-pleasing-priests' eg @ 1hour 57min 08sec, who distribute Holy Communion any-old-way, but it is clear that there is a standing directive to distribute on the tongue which certain priests take it upon themselves to contravene.   I might add, imo this directive is much more evident than ever it was under Francis' two predecessors.

Man Refused Hand Communion at Pope Francis' Sunday Mass, 14 April

Just watch the first 26 seconds of this video and you will see reverent reception of Holy Communion, as well as an education on Pope Francis' intention with regards to the Liturgy.  Thank you Father MacDonald, of Southern Orders blog for being about the only traditionalist to recognize what is plain to see!  [[i.e. reverent reception of our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament has the full backing of the Holy Father!]]

True, if you watch the Mass in its entirety you finally see some priests finally  resorting to the '70's style' Communion-any-old-way but, logically thinking, it is likely that these priests are the ones who are not following what they have been instructed to do by the Holy Father and are instead just yielding to pressure.

If you think about it, it is kind of like a school with a dress-code.  The principal  tells the teachers to enforce it and some do, yet some teachers who want to be cool with the students, don't.  What one never, ever-ever sees is a teacher who makes up his own dress code and then expects the principal to 'back him up'...therefore it is very unlikely that the priest-reminding-the-communicant-to-receive-on-the-tongue at the beginning of this video is just some loose cannon, trying to enforce his own little rule!

I rejoice with Fr. MacDonald that so many progressives, like the Praytellblog folk, say they just love Francis' 'liturgical taste'!  Maybe they will start imitating his example!!(?)

Father Barron believes homosexuals 'should come out of the closet'

around 5min 30sec..is where Father B talks about how good it is for 'gays' to come out of the closet.

The video's title promises to make a moral argument against homosexual marriage....yet it never does....it just seems to have Fr. B bending over backwards to show what a nice and reasonable and up-to-date guy he is...

Father!

don't 'closetted' homosexuals have a right to privacy?  your characterization of  people who don't wish to advertise their proclivities, and perversion, to the general public is very patronizing and, IMO very wrong.  Do we not suffer greatly from an over sexualized society?  what right does the general public have to know what sort of sexual struggles I or someone else may have?  I thought the confessional was sufficient!  Does everyone, my children, my sisters and my cousins (whom I number in the dozens!) need to know what I confess, or how am I doing sexually?

secondly, Father, I don't see all this un-closetting as a good thing..per se. period. exclamation point.  It has a demoralizing-and-confusing effect on young people when they see Ellen D. e/g/ advertising that she performs unnatural sex acts with rubber phalluses and yet 'supports the troops' and other charities and hence all these things are somehow connected, and so all  must be 'good'.  Perhaps you --with your years of post-graduate moral theology can sort this out, Father, but my youngsters cannot.  And yet you advocate rubbing their faces in it!

Pope Francis continues making communicants kneel for Holy Communion!

How long has Francis been pope?  How long have my  gloomy traddies predicted impending "balloon masses"?  MSGR Marini being fired?  COMMUNION-ANY-OLD-WAY?    Follow this Youtube link and check out around minutes 1:59 to see how the Holy Father [[still!!]] distributes our Lord --this was in Sunday's Divine Mercy Mass at St. John Lateran....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dsDC8aiRZfI#!

I'm glad I didn't wager any of my hard earned $ on these predictions!

It's not too early to assess what has happened over the past 3 weeks... as Father MacDonald on Southern Orders has pointed out

Francis' first two U.S. episcopal appointments come from Bishop Bruskewitz'  diocese of Lincoln.  [http://whispersintheloggia.blogspot.com/2013/04/if-you-build-it-he-will-come-for-first.html] Benedict's Altar arrangement remains...(sour-pusses will assure us that it takes a long time to  remove those 6 candlesticks!...[[Benedict super-glued them to the altar!]] you just wait! )  Pope Francis' style---sicut Father MacDonald-- is Ad Orientem...i.e. soft and non-theatrical....kneeling Communion remains!....Guido Marini remains!

Yes, women's feet were washed and the red shoes are gone....I must ask however, if these things out-weigh Francis' reverence for the Blessed Sacrament?  If the Holy Father had kept the red shoes and not have washed women's feet, but instead had started administering Communion any-old way - as did Bl. J.P.II and Pope Benedict at the beginning of his pontificate--, would that have been a good trade?

Let's continue to pray for the Holy Father!