Thursday, November 26, 2009

k.c. inspires YIM Catholic post

Kneeling Catholic said...
http://www.pilgrimhall.org/ThanxProc2000.htm

above is a link to a collection of recent presidential Thanksgiving day proclamations.

>>it's hard to imagine either Bush, a Clinton, or any other recent president putting God above country


---Mr. Bull, politicians giving lipservice to God is easy to come by. You will find a certain reluctance to mention God directly in Mr. Obama's address which does reveal a lot more than I would have guessed.

However lumping President Bush in with Presidents Clinton and Obama as not giving God credit doesn't square. Dislike of Bush - which you seem to be venting - , by Hollywood, the media and elites, stemmed from one word -- Abortion. Please don't tell me that it is people loving their country more than God that is the problem. It is a fact that people who feel little loyalty to their country generally have a problem with Faith in general. k.c.
November 25, 2009 5:45 PM

Webster Bull said...
k.c, I don't see how you can tweeze "dislike" of Bush out of a statement that puts all recent presidents in one pile and contrasts them with the father of our country, who, with his contemporaries, really took the Christian God into account when writing our founding documents and then governing by them. There is nothing in my write-up that contrasts Obama and Clinton with the Bushes. The contrast is with Washington, over 220 years, possibly with Lincoln over 150. By "lumping" Bush with Obama and Clinton, I am trying to crawl, clamber, claw my way above politics to a broader issue, yes, even broader than abortion. That is: what do I put first in my life, God or Caesar? Do I consider the Beatitudes before I bomb Iraq, for example? Do I consider the Commandments before I support abortion, for another example? I am opposed to abortion. I was opposed to the war in Iraq and remain so.
November 25, 2009 6:04 PM

Kneeling Catholic said...
>>Do I consider the Beatitudes before I bomb Iraq, for example?


---Happy Thanksgiving to you, Mr. Bull! You do know your statement betrays a pacifistic conviction. If the beautitudes make it obvious Bush XLIII should not have attacked, do they then make it obvious that Saddam,--who was paying suicide bombers in Israel [btw no seems to notice that that phenomenon ceased with Saddam's ouster], and had already attempted to assassinate Bush XLI, and did horrible things to the Kurds in Iraq--should still be in business? Do the beautitudes make it obvious that Iraqis should not now be voting in elections? ...

And! [back to George Washington] Do they make it obvious that the American Colonists should not have taken up arms and fought an eight year war?Please forgive my following pontification, but... Pacifism is a haven for elites and ingrates who loath their country. It is not Catholic. And forgive me if I have unfairly tarred you with pacifism, but you did leave yourself wide open...

k.c.
November 26, 2009 12:45 AM

Webster Bull said...
k.c.,Pacifism is indeed Catholic, although it is true that Catholic haters through the centuries have referred to us as "elitist," an obvious attribute of "Papism." The Catholic Church's position on war is, in fact, double. The choice is yours (and mine). The Church supports pacifism, and great Catholics like Dorothy Day and Francis of Assisi were proponents of it, in word and/or deed. The Church also supports the "just war," which is narrowly defined in Church writings, although we seldom hew to that narrow definition. Here it is -- The war must be, first of all, defensive, and given that, the following conditions must hold. * the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;* all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;* there must be serious prospects of success;* the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.Continuing to quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (par. 2309):"These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the 'just war' doctrine. The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good."We can argue about the American Revolution (it was at least defensive), but the Catholic position is unarguable. Let's set aside pacifism (by your choice). Did/does the Iraq war meet these conditions, beginning with "defensive"? (It's Obama's war now, I know that, as is Afghanistan, so this is not Bush-baiting.) Anyway, I'm quite happy to be "tarred with pacifism," a strange phrase but yours, so please write again. And have a great holiday.

later on.....


I can’t think of a better time than Thanksgiving morning to launch a series of posts about the Catholic Church’s position on war—which is a fundamental reason why I am proud to be Catholic and therefore fits comfortably within this blogging niche. I’ve thrown up that Roman numeral in the title of this post because this will be only a prologue.But what a prologue! I’m incited to write about Catholics and war by an exchange of comments with “Kneeling Catholic” that follows my post on George Washington’s first Thanksgiving Day address. The moment the inspiration hit me, I heard the voice of the Peacenik inside me. She said, “But W-e-b-s-t-e-r,” (the Peacenik speaks in soothing tones) “why not read the Divine Office first? It’s always a good idea, W-e-b-s-t-e-r. Why, even The Anchoress does it. It’s not without risks, but . . . ”The Angry Man butted in, “Aw, shut up! Webster—just read the Liturgy!” Which I did, bowing to the combined advice of my angel and my devil. Taking up the Liturgy of the Hours, I found, as I so often do, a reading for today, Thursday of the 34th week in Ordinary Time, that is eerily on point. Here it is. (I’ll be back to this topic later this holiday weekend, after much turkey, much TV football, three or four naps, and, I hope, a viewing of the new film “The Road,” based on Cormac McCarthy’s end-of-days novel.)......

Kneeling Catholic said...
>>>I’m incited to write about Catholics and war by an exchange of comments with “Kneeling Catholic” <<

If 'pacifism' is simply going to war as a last resort then we are all pacifists. If it is the flat refusal to take up arms in service of your country, then it is not Catholic....

" it is just that Christians invade the land you inhabit, for you blaspheme the name of Christ and alienate everyone you can from His worship" ...

Name that Saint!...

pray for me!

k.c.
November 26, 2009 9:31 AM

Webster Bull said...
k.c., my new bff---1. Pray for me!2. I can't name that saint!3. I plan to discuss pacifism in more detail with future posts in this series, and I hope we will have more chances to discuss this, as well as the other doctrinal Catholic position, the just war. (I suspect we will.)4. I'm hoping to clear my head to think about all these things as well as possible.Peace! Webster Ooops, did I betray an elitist position by using the P word? just kidding ;-)

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